One of the biggest ongoing administrative pains is bouncebacks and invalid email addresses.

It's frustrating to chase down people and get them to fix outdated information, particularly email addresses since that is one of the key ways of contacting people.

Two things particularly vex me:
- people with invalid email addresses who regularly log in to the site
- people who give bad/false email addresses when they sign up

One idea might be to lock their logon until the email address is validated. New members might also be required to go thru a validation. This could be handled the same way that many sites do by requiring an email address, then sending an email that gives instructions on how to finish authorizing the signup. Bouncebacks could trigger locking the logon until this is done.

Would love to see some other ideas and comments.

Really like this idea!

Do people regularly give false email addresses when joining class sites? I'm sure somebody does, but how prevalent is this ovrall? Anyone else? If somebody is giving a false email address I'm assuming they either never want to get email from the class site (they probably don't realize they can opt out) or they simply do not want to give out their real email address. We could easily set up an email address validation system of course, but if somebody like this really doesn't want to give out their real email address anyway, what's to stop them from creating a hotmail or gmail account in 2 minutes and just using that? With such an easy way to defeat the system anyway, my concern here would be that people are trying to join and can't fully finish the join process until confirming the email addres -- 99% of the time I'm sure people are giving a valid address, but email isn't always delivered to some accounts immediately. We've seen many cases where email gets queued for awhile and then delivered later. That puts a potential barrier in the way of registration in order to solve a problem that (I'm assuming) is relatively rare to begin with, and easy to defeat in a couple of minutes by anybody who really wants to. Just thinking out loud, you guys tell me what you think.

I think you are focusing on the false in a negative way and missing the admin headache. I've had to false email addresses - one was a person who didn't understand that leaving it blank was an option, the second was a prankster.

The point is without a valid email address (or perhaps an address that I could send them a snailmail) there is no way to tell someone they have entered an invalid address. There goes keeping the database up-to-date which is one of the key points in maintaining communication and a key value of the website.

Let me focus on this in a different way. I've only seen probably one site in several months that didn't at least have a verification for email addresses. And most use the email challenge method.

Right now I have about 110 classmates with about 6 people with invalid addresses. Most likely don't know and yet 3 of them regularly log on.

This is just too big a hole.

I probably am. I've been driving 12 hours across the country tonight and my mind has turned to jello. I'll think about this more in the morning though. I still see some isues here but we'll come up with something.

I have about the same number of email bounces and I think the classmates are just unaware that their address is incorrect. I don't think it was on purpose.

I totally agree with Ava that the "bouncees" just probably do not know that they are "boucing"...I've tried calling phone numbers, leaving messages,also posting a note on the front of the homepage with the names of those that bounce, requesting them to update...some success,sometime not so much...but i was reminded by one member that sometimes people "just want to be left alone". i am trying to find the balance, and i am trying to remember that we are all "adults" and personal responsibility is expected, for the most part. There is no perfect system and this one works so much better than most, that i think we should encourage our "members" that if they are not getting the messages, they will be unable to benefit from updates or hear from those that want to "find" them! We have many in a small town that do not want to "bothered" or reminded of a time of life that they did not really enjoy!
It's a new year...Time to celebrate our many blessings and the joy of friendships. You're more than welcome to take whatever you like from our reunion humor pages, our Whatever ,Insights or Five Decades Back(Thanks, Doug!) pages...they are compilations of everyone's "stuff" but it is my hope to encourage our classmates to show up at our reunion and reach out, because life is too short and we never know when we will "have our last laugh!"...
Get some rest Brad and thanks for all you are doing to make this experience an excellent one for all! We appreciate you more than you know!

Kris, love the Twitter comic! LOL!

Although i'm not big on resolutions,etc...i am trying to find some "balance" in 2010!...i can blame it all on Brad, who has given me the "confidence" that old dawgs can learn new tricks! Thanks Brad!It's been Fun!

one for just about everyone!

Wow, I got tied up today in real life and couldn't check in until now, and look what happened it became a cartoon thread.

All right, here's the bottom line, we have two possible scenarios here that need to be addressed. One is somebody inadvertently types the wrong email address. The other is somebody intentionally types the wrong email address. So here's how I see it playing out:

1) CLASSMATE INADVERTENTLY ENTERS WRONG EMAIL ADDRESS: It will happen very rarely since we ask for it twice -- somebody would have to type it wrong the same way 2 times in a row. If it did happen though, the email verification system would do no good since the email would simply bounce. The only way it would do good is if we held the user right there and waited for them to confirm the email address to finish the registration process. I'm not comfortable with this due to some email servers queuing email, leaving the Classmate unable to register. I'm also not comfortable with this because at least some of these confirmation emails are going to get trapped by spam filters, also leaving the person unable to register. I think we have to let the person in immediately even if they've inadvertently typed their emai address incorrectly two times in a row.

2) CLASSMATE INTENTIONALLY ENTERS INCORRECT EMAIL ADDRESS: Once again if somebody is doing this deliberately, the email verification process would be easy to beat in about 2 minutes just by setting up a hotamil or gmail account. For this reason I'm also thinking it's not good to hold people at the registration process when it's simple for anyone to thwart the system anyway. Why make everyone go through this barrier for what is presumably a very small percentage of people?

So, bottom line, I think the solution here is letting people into their account immediately no matter what they do. And then I think we need to show an "The email address for this account has not been cofirmed" message at the top of the Edit Contact Details page and also in the gray box on the home page. And we set a time limit. Like 1 day. If the email address hasn't been confirmed in 1 day then we make people confirm it before being able to log in again. This way we get around any email queues, we give people ample time to deal with any spam email issues or non receipt issues, we let people change that email address while in an unconfirmed state and then confirm the newly changed email address if desired or if it's necessary. It won't stop those who really want to from using a "fake real" email address like a hotmail or gmail address, but we're not going to force 100% of people into giving out a real email address anyway if they simply don't want to.

So there ya go, that's our solution: Immediate account access with a 1 day email address confirmation window. This is a solution I'm happy with, because the most important thing we can possibly do when somebody new is trying to join the site is ensure they can easily do so and that they don't get stuck in technical red tape anywhere.

If there's any opposition to this proposed email validation feature speak now before I add it to the Task List.

Question: Will an admin be able to flag an account as e-mail verified? Sometimes I use a "Fake E-mail" classmate for different things - like a place to store photos from a reunion (I know this will probably go away when the Photo Gallery is live for everyone).

Sure, that's a good idea. Admins will need that for a variety of reasons I'm sure.

What happens if they don't confirm their e-mail address in the time period? Are they locked out of the site or can they still view/edit their profile?

I like the solution and think it should help with those that incorrectly entered their email address.

Thanks again.

I think if they haven't confirmed within 1 day, we don't show the Member Links on the left navigation anymore and make the site browsable as if the person wasn't a member at all. I.E. they wouldn't be able to get into any password protected pages, they wouldn't be able to access the Message Center or other functions like that, etc.

I like this idea a lot for the new signups! Well thought out and very reasonable approach.

I'm not sure it addresses the problem of emails going invalid with time. If bouncebacks could be tied in this would help with what I think is the more common cause of the problem.

Any suggestions? An email bounces (for any # of reasons of course) so what should we do with it system wise? The only thing I can even think of is show the bounce to the Admin so the Admin can track down the new email address and fix the problem like we already do now. If an email bounces obviously we, nor you, have any way of emailing the person to let them know there's a problem with the address. Although one thing we could do (and should do) is put a message in the gray box in the upper right corner of the home page that says:

"The last email sent to your address, , could not be delivered. If you have a new email address please Edit Your Contact Information and replace the old email address."

Obviously if somebody updates their email address and doens't change it on the site they will no longer be able to log in, so they're going to get the clue that this needs to be done anyway. But the above message will catch all of the scenarios where somebody has selected the "Stay Logged In" button, changes their email address but doesn't update it on the class site, and is thus able to continue getting into the site even though the email address in their Contact Info page is now incorrect. Actually this will probably catch a lot of email addresses going bad, this is a really good idea.

Sounds good to me. But please make it either a very visible or my preference would be a pop up box that shows up on when logging in until the problem is cleared.

Perfect Brad, I really like this solution, like stated above, well thought out!

Brad Switzer wrote:

Is the above statement correct? It seems that you don't really need a valid e-mail address to login to the site. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by "update their email address". I am thinking - gets a new e-mail provider and closes the account being used by classcreator. It seems that even after getting a new e-mail address and closing their old e-mail address that they can still log in to the system just fine.

I am probably over-thinking this problem.

Good morning! I read through all of the above in a vague coffee haze, and one thought came to mind. About half of my bouncebacks are over stuffed email boxes or technical difficulties with a server. Will there be a differentiation for those? Many of my age group are doing good to turn on the computer, let alone handle an email issue like emptying the mailbox. Panic will reign! I am all for a way to handle bouncebacks. I currently write a comment on the profile in CAPS to contact me about the email address. I also say in the comment to whomever is reading (friends, often neighbors in our home town) to tell the classmate that he/she needs to correct the address. That has worked. I usually get the correction and about four friends sending me the address.

Adding my 2 cents...Margaret

Kyle Erickson wrote:

I probably didn't state that very well. All I meant is if somebody changes their actual email address but does not update that email address on the class web site, then they wouldn't be able to log in using the new email address. They would have to continue loging in with the old, now-outdated email address until such time that they changed it on the site.

Margaret Ann Swanzey wrote:

That's a good plan, I hadn't thought of that.

What we'll do is inform the Classmate that the email couldn't be delivered the next time they log on and that they need to check into the problem. Most of the time I would think the Classmate will be able to solve the problem (email box is over quoted, they've changed their email address, etc). In cases where they can't solve the problem they can always contact the Admin for help, and if necessary Admins can always contact us here to resolve any email address issues.

I'm the Johnny come lately this time around. I'm glad that Brad has come up with the solution similar to what I was beginning to think as I was reading down thru all the posts. However one suggestion that stood out, that I tend to NOT agree with is the use of pop-up boxes. A lot of people including myself despise them as a nuisance. And that is of course just my opinion.

I recently sent an e-mail to the class, having 252 in the class with 75 e-mail addresses, 26 of them bounced. I was a bit surprised that 1/3 of the addresses were invalid, but just two of them were 550 errors (over-filled mailbox). However, this seems to be the trend and I fully support Brad's approach. This forum is a great feature, especially when the site administrator is right there 28 hours a day getting matters addressed and taken care of in a timely manner--Thanks again Brad! You probably hear that a lot, but never enough. You and your team really deserve a lot more (I'll see what I can do--okay?)

Brad Switzer wrote:

I really like the above solution. Maybe you could add that after updating their email in Contact Information, they will need to sign in using the new email?

I am, however, a little confused about how the initial email validation process would work. Do you mean that when a new registrant returns to the site after signing up, they are presented with a page asking them to validate their email? If so, how does the 1 day rule apply? If they return within 1 day and sign in with the same email address, it is automatically verified, is that what you mean?
Thank you for any clarification.

No. For the first 24 hours somebody can sign in and do absolutely everything on the site. But sometime during that 24 hour period they must open up their confirmation email and click the link inside to validate their email address. Until they've done so, they'll receive a message at the top of the Contact Details edit page, as well as the gray box in the upper right of the home page, informing them that they still need to validate their email address. If not done after 24 hours the user will no longer be able to use the Member Functions of the site.

Brad Switzer wrote:

Ok, thanks! I get the first part now, but what happens in this scenario: A new classmate signs up, then leaves the site (probably has to wait for a Validation from the admin on sites that have that option enabled). New classmate either doesn't notice, deletes or otherwise doesn't understand the confirmation email right away. They leave their computer (because unlike us, they don't spend all day tied to it, LOL). Now, after 24 hours, they try to go back to the site....They will then be directed by the gray box in the upper right to find and use the confirmation email to validate...is this correct?
That's assuming the email address is correct. If the address is invalid there will be no Confirmation email received to respond to, right? But the admin receives a new classmate notice and a bounce back from the welcome email. Now what? The classmate maybe returns to the site and tries to log-in, but can't, so hopefully he or she uses the Contact Us to ask for help from the admin. Aren't we back to where we started, or what am I missing?
And how will this correlate with the Admin validation on a site so enabled?

Brad,
This sounds like a wonderful option...Our class has many who have enough of a challenge to sign in once, we'll never get them to cooperate and participation might be even worse than it is now...Could this be an "optional" admin function for those that desire to utilize it?

Thanks.
kris

I suggested the pop up box - but I too hate them.

But!

I'm betting that a box on their home page or something else like that would be missed. Almost half of the people logging in to the system for the first time either send me an email asking something like "how do I log in" or "I've read the main page and don't see how to get my password."

That is spite of huge letters saying "First time user instructions" being plastered on the home page.

Point is that people are rather focused and don't read everything. This problem requires grabbing their attention.

Bottom line is that I'm afraid that nothing will catch many peoples' attention unless you put something right in their face that stops them!

Which we would of course, but only after the 24 hour window. Most people check their email regularly and would get the email validation email and click the link during the 24 hours anyway. If someobdy doesn't, and they also miss the message on the site, after 24 hours we'll give them a more prominant front and centered message. Simple as that.

The email validation really won't have any impact on the New Classmate Verification feature. If somebody wants to use the Member Functions of the site and New Classmate Verification has been enabled by the Administrator, then in order to do so the Classmate will have to be verified by the Admin AND the Classmate him or herself will have to click the link in the validation email.

Oops, missed one question. No, I don't think it should be optional. It makes it too difficult to support it if for some people it does one thing and for others it does something else. Core parts of the system have to be started. Like the original post stated though, email validation is very common, and used by Facebook and many other sites. Interestingly enough, I see that Facebook also lets people into the account right away prior to email validation by the user. I'm not sure if they further have a time period or not where the email must be validated, but at a minimum they are using validation in a way that doens't interfere with registration, similar to the proposed solution above.

Perfect! If you listen carefully you can hear me purring already.

Brad Switzer wrote:

I like this part of the solution, though I would request that the classmate also be reminded to use the new email address to log in after updating.

Brad Switzer wrote:

I'm still unclear as to how the proposed email confirmation process helps in the event that the email address is originally entered incorrectly? Is there some method of advising the classmate of what to do if they don't receive the confirmation email?

Phone call. Or snail mail. Or after 24 hours that person is going to have their Member Functions turned off and be forced to confirm a different email address. I.E. at this point the user can easily fix the incorrect address themselves.

I think I may have missed something...I had 6 bouncebacks, but they are all good/valid email addresses. I checked with each member who had a bounced address. They either weren't in their "good" list or ???, but they all said that they received the New Year msg.

Brad Switzer wrote:

I'm sorry to be obtuse, but how does this differ from what we have now? It seems to me that we would only be instituting a method to confirm correct email addresses, but not really doing anything much different as regards an incorrect one? I guess I'm just thick today

My vote (at this point): I'm against adding possibly confusing complication to the sign up process that doesn't really seem to me to be of much benefit, or to really be necessary in the vast majority of cases.

Agree totally with Marian! I guess that is one reason why i wondered if this might be an option for those that find this a "problem". We have a "problem" getting anyone to sign up and it is very simple now, but not so much for those afraid of computer workings and many avoid Facebook for this very reason...sorry but i'm simple. The majority will never log on again...usage will be discouraged,etc...it's no biggie for me if the e-mail bounces. Life's too short...post their names on the front page or call them...many of ours have not left a phone either, so i accept that many just want to be left alone, especially if it is not a reunion year. i guess control is not one of my big issues...i'm just delighted that someone has taken the time to even sign up! You've made the process so user friendly at this point, why mess with "near" perfection!?

Heh. Well, this type of thing is going to be normal in any forum like this. All sides weigh in and sometimes there's not going to be consensus. Our job as developers is to determine what items are going to be core parts of the system and what items are going to be optional. The problem with making too many things optional is you start to get interface clutter that in the end starts making the system confusing -- the very thing we want to avoid as you mentioned.

Obviously just from reading this forum topic (for those who have dared) we're going to meet with at least some resistance if we choose to make it a core part of the system with no option of disabling it. I probably shouldn't have spoken too quickly about this, if this partiular feature was optional it really wouldn't be that big of a deal. Like I said though, speaking in general we want to keep the number of optional features in check.

Here's a thought on this and may in the end be what we do here. There's a variety of threads in these forums that have more or less gone this direction -- i.e. some people want it, others simply don't. I have a list of these features that there's no common consensus on. I've thought for awhile now that we're going to need some type of "Advanced Options" link on the Admin nav that has all of these things listed there, much like your Preferences page works now. On this would be a list of all the things you can turn on or off that some people want and some don't, especially advanced functions that experienced users might like but newer users may find difficult or confusing.

Different classes have different needs, and I think such an Advanced Options page is the ticket to pleasing everyone based on their needs and skill levels. It also keeps things in 1 area and out of the common parts of the system, keeping the system new and easy to use and understand (especially for newer Admins), while still allowing Admins to turn on more advanced features if desired once they and their Classmates have gained a fundamental understanding of the system and are looking to take the site to the next level.

"Advanced Options"...EXCELLENT!!

I agree with Kris and Marian. The solution creates more headaches than the problem does. It would make sense to make it an advanced option rather than implementing it across the board.